Balance: An Interview with Robert Chu

By Jose Fraguas

Q: How long have you been practicing the martial arts?

I started martial arts during my youth, about 7 years old. My grandfather was a practitioner of Shaolin martial arts and Tai Ji Quan and several times when I acted up, I was punished by having to stand in a corner in a horse stance. Little did I know that was basic training in the martial arts.

Q: How many styles have you train in?

I trained primarily in Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun Kuen in my youth. As I matured, I became interested in Xing Yi, Tai Ji and Ba Gua, and Mi Zong Lama Quan. I was also one of the last disciples of the late master, Lui Yon Sang, the grandmaster of the Fei Lung Fu Mun (Flying Dragon/Tiger System). I was fortunate to have received the complete transmission from him personally. Despite all my crosstraining, I view my personal style as Wing Chun. I practice and teach Tai Ji Quan also, but I feel Wing Chun is closest to suit my personality.

Q: who were your primary instructors?

I studied with many teachers in New York Chinatown, and wanted to explore the Chinese martial arts as extensively as I could. I thought all systems had their good and bad points, and I thought to cross train and improve myself with the various systems. Also, as young man, I was also seeking for a system that suited me best personally, and I wanted to sample what I could. NY Chinatown had all systems - 7 star praying mantis, white crane, Lion Fist, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, Lung Ying Mor Kiu, Hung Fut, Northern Shaolin and many other systems. Some masters in Chinatown were masters of legitimate systems, some masters just made things up.

At age 14, I studied some Wing Chun basics with a friend of mine, Jeung Ma Chut, who studied the Jiu Wan system. Later another friend, Eric Kwai, who was a student of Moy Yat, and I had a Gong Sao match, and although I beat him, his close quarters fighting skill was apparent, so I wanted to learn some of his basics in exchange for some fighting techniques. Eric suggested I continue my studies with one of Moy Yat's top students, so I learned from Lee Moy Shan. Because of a falling out with Lee Moy Shan, I left to study the Gu Lao and Yuen Kay Shan systems of Wing Chun under Kwan Jong Yuen, a good friend and generous teacher. I later went to seek out Master Hawkins Cheung in Wing Chun and have been with him since 1988. He is truly a master and an honorable man and it is his methods that I primarily use.

I trained in Hung Ga under Yee Chi Wai (Frank Yee). Yee is the successor to the Tang Fong system of Hung Ga, and I studied the major forms and weaponry of Hung Ga with him. He also introduced me to Mi Zong Lama Pai master, Chan Tai Shan, whom I studied with.

I studied Yang style Tai Ji Quan and Hebei Xing Yi under KMT General and Chiang Kai Shek's personal bodyguard, Wang Shin Liu. Wang Lao Shi was a General in the Kou Min Tang army and studied military science in Japan. He was a student of Yang Cheng Fu's disciple, Zhu Gui Ting. When the Japanese invaded China, Wang led many troops to do battle with the Japanese. Wang was also a master of Xing Yi which he learned from Zhu Gui Ting, who studied with Li Cun Yi, so I am proud to learn these martial arts from a man who used the arts in the battlefield. Wang went to Taiwan when the Communists took over China, then later retired in NYC.

I also studied briefly under the late Kenny Gong, exploring his Xing Yi. Master Gong taught me the Five Elements, Za Shi Chui and 12 animal forms, and I was very interested in the internal power that was cultivated in Xing Yi.

I was one of the last disciples of Fei Long Fu Mun under the late Lui Yon Sang. Master Lui was 83 years old at that time and many of the top young masters in NY Chinatown studied with him. He was interesting because his art primarily consisted of weaponry, most notably the pole and the spear. His fist art came from one of the greatest Southern fist masters of all time - Leung Tien Chiu. Lui taught primarily San Sao and two man work when it came to empty hands. His art was simple, yet very devastatingly effective.

Since most of Lui's students were experts in other systems of martial arts, I was introduced to Yin Fu Ba Gua under my fellow training brothers, Chan Bong and Thomas Lee, who studied under Wang Han Zi. I later continued more studies of Yin Fu Ba Gua Quan under He Jing Han of Taiwan.

Q: Would you tell us some interesting stories of your early days in kung fu training?

New York Chinatown was a mecca of Chinese martial arts and always exciting to meet other practitioners. I would often go and visit my friends from other schools and we would engage in "Gong Sao" (Fighting matches) and exchange with others. Most of the time, we would want to see the forms of who we fought against - this led to comparison and trading arts. For example, I would fight a guy and if I didn't do so good, then I would study fighting methods and a set with him so I could improve my weakness. In this way, I became familiar with the strong points of many styles, and saw how each approached their training from. It was real exciting and fun. Also, there are a lot of family associations in Chinatown - Oak Tin, Jung Shan, Chinese Restaurant Worker's Association which sponsored spaces for visiting or local masters and I might have some friends who were studying or practicing there. I would often go and visit other martial artists and try to pick their brains on how to improve, or just to compare how their martial arts were practiced.

Q: Were you a 'natural' at martial arts - did the movements come easily to you?

I was no natural - in fact, I was rather skinny and uncoordinated when young. I was tall and lanky compared to the average Cantonese. I did have one advantage - I had great flexibility with my legs, and usually beat most southern fist practitioners with my legs.

In martial arts, natural athletes rarely last. The martial arts are an acquired skill; they have to be learned. Some people learn things quickly and just burn out quickly. I also think if you have a burning desire to learn, then you will excel and continue practicing. There's a saying in Chan (Zen) - "No doubt, no attainment; little doubt little attainment; Big doubt, big attainment." I'm a firm believer in that. Today's experts and masters all had to study real hard to get where they are today. No one just gets it handed to them. Some think they can buy martial arts knowledge. I think money may open up the doors, but when it comes to using it, you have to have it in your body, so hard work is essential.
Q: How has your personal martial art (kung fu) has changed/developed over the years?

I think it develops as you mature. For example, in my youth, fighting was something that was natural - you did it for survival or for the sake of ego. Martial arts were something that led to big delusions - jealousy, hatred, ignorance. I see most practitioners still stuck there today. I saw a lot of guys get involved with the secret societies and with underground activities, and saw many lives ruined. I think that ultimately in martial arts, a small Dao (Way) should lead into a big Dao (way) - you use the arts to temper yourself and as a method to cross over from greed, anger, stupidity. This way you can be more in harmony with yourself and your world.

Physically, one has less time to train when they get older, so one has to continue to practice basic "gung" (work) - that is, basic exercises to maintain strength, flexibility, and timing. Nothing leaves the basics. Advanced work is just the basics applied.
Q: With all the technical changes during the last 30 years, do you think there is still 'pure' systems such as tai chi chuan, choy lee fut, wing chun kung fu, et cetera?

Pure? I think there is no such thing as "pure" - it's an illusion. For example, everyone has their own personal style - you eventually express it when you reach the highest level where art and personality match. Martial arts are both an art and a science. In Wing Chun, the art is scientific because it gives you tools and you properly replicate them, you can have the same results. The art is flexible in that it allows for personal expression. Personal expression is the art part. You learn the tools, then apply them; you don't learn the fighting forms of your master to copy their style. For example, no one in Yip Man Wing Chun fights exactly the same as Yip Man did - it is not a style that you learn to fight with and duplicate your master. The system is based on the most effective use of human body and proper timing and positioning. Everything is dependent upon the moment and the energy that the opponent gives us. People are not entirely correct when they think that Wing Chun is only scientific and based on physics - the basics are the science, but the expression in application is the art. In Wing Chun, nobody teaches you step by step what to do in Chi Sao (Sticking Hands) or what to do when attacked spontaneously - you have to develop yourself to utilize it. We're not a paint by numbers system.

All of the founders of the above martial arts must have had some training elsewhere in order to create their system, so only people under that rigid thought of "lineage" try to be pure. Ed Parker said it best - "When pure fist meets pure flesh - that's pure." Too many Chinese people are hung up with pure lineage, authentic transmission, from the grandmaster. I see Americans buying into that also, because they were trained in that way. I think it's rigid. You study martial arts for you - not for what names you can drop. All those names and credentials don't help when you're being attacked. This is why I have a motto, "Let application be your sifu; let function rule over form." In that way, you really weed out the non functional and learn to use your core system.

Q: May we talk about different wing chun styles or methods? And if yes, would you elaborate on that?

Sure. There are many schools of Wing Chun. There's Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Gu Lao, Pao Fa Lien, Chi Sim Weng Chun, Pan Nam and others. One thing I must say is that in the USA, many come out of the woodwork with secret family systems which claim to be "original" or the most "traditional". Often these claims are just a form of puffery, based on greed or ignorance. In China, we used the marketing claim, "Old, original, or traditional", whereas here in the USA, we say "new and improved". Often these individuals claiming their Wing Chun is the first or oldest is a load of crap - people just want to gain money or fame through the "secret lineage". There are a lot of giveaways and contradictory statements when people come up with this stuff, but often, people are gullible and want to really believe in this fake stuff. I guess some people can't tell the difference between "Chop suey" and Peking duck.. I guess unless one is scholarly and actually spends time to look things up, one can fall for the tricks and advertising.

Wing Chun is probably developed most in the 1850's, although some say that it has it's roots are connected to events in Southern China to overthrow the Qing Dynasty that began 150 years earlier. In my opinion, all historians are speculators, since they weren't there. The late Dharma Master Hsuan Hua, the 45 th Dharma successor to Chan (Zen) Buddhism said, "Historians are just people having nothing to do and looking for something to do. They want to investigate history, in other words, to discover what era this person lived in and what period that person lived in. It is like having eaten one's fill, one has nothing to do, so one putters around with meaningless things.In my opinion, these kinds of people are undesirable. The more they research, the more trouble they create, saying, "This is counterfeit, that is real." What is real in the world? What is counterfeit? Nothing! If you think it is counterfeit then it is counterfeit. If you think it is real, then it is real."

I think his scolding is full of Chan flavor. If you want to believe your lineage is real and you cultivate it and develop it to a high level, then it is. Who is to say something is legitimate or not? What historians try to do is to prove their hypothesis based on facts they gather and create a paradigm for you to believe in. Pay your money and take your pick! When I looked into the history of Wing Chun with Rene Ritchie, my co-author of Complete Wing Chun, the first thing I told him was every branch will say they're the first, most original and best. You can't avoid the politics. And practically every branch of Wing Chun has said they are the oldest, most original. This is all human nature.

They all say that to bolster their egos or want fame, after all, Chinese think the most original is best. So in a sense, this is just a marketing ploy. Chinese knew and understood the power of myths and legends, knowing that the Chinese mind enjoys a mystery and likes to find things out if they are real or not. In fact, in Chinese culture, it is often a custom to exaggerate a friend's credentials when introducing him to another friend. It's a kind of puffery - the only thing is you have to find out whether it is real or not and in what context.

It's the same with Wing Chun or any other martial art. For example, the origins of the Shaolin Temple - Damo (Bodhidharma) went to Shaolin, he didn't found the temple, it was already there. Nor did he create Zen or Chinese martial arts. People (usually retired warriors and generals) brought the arts to the temple. The saying "all martial arts are from Shaolin" is an exaggeration. The secret society origins are also fables, popularized through myths and powerful images of Chinese culture. I think even the average Chinese knows the fables and take them with a grain of salt, but the average American has no idea of the culture and lore of the Chinese, so take things as fact.

And you know what? You can tell when these people are trying to say their style is special and most original exclusive of every other related style, after all, they're the ones trying hard to promote that lineage. If a person says that Wing Chun is over 300 years old, then it is true for all the branches as well, not just one branch, after all, they all are linked through one important period of time - the time of the Red Boat Opera people of the King Fa Hui.

I realize what I say might be offensive to some, but if we have our differences, then I salute you! I can only say these things after I have looked into so -called secrets revealed and researched the history of China from the Ming to the Qing Dynasty period.

Personally, I think it is despicable when people lie and talk about their made up origins as real, but if a style has merits, then I try to focus on that. I think some people just want to fill their rice bowl with food and make a living, keep their business open, attract more students, keep their wives happy and put their kids through school.

Of course, the best known is the school of Yip Man, and within it, there are many branches based on what the first generation students of Yip Man interpreted. For example, Leung Ting's association is known worldwide and reflects his teachings. William Cheung is also very famous and teaches his interpretation of what Yip Man taught him.

I was lucky and was able to study many Wing Chun systems in the Yip Man family, but I concentrated on studying more of what Hawkins Cheung taught me. Hawkins' style I feel is unique, his Wing Chun emphasizes body structure and stresses combat applications. When I went to him, I already knew the entire system and had practiced Wing Chun for over 11 years. Hawkins told me that knowing forms wasn't enough - I had to concentrate on application. I thought, who is this cocky guy? Later I found out that he could back up everything he said.

When I studied with Hawkins, I found that the real DNA of Wing Chun is body structure, and this is what permeates in the application of it. What I was lacking in my previous study of Wing Chun was how to use body power. When I learned this, it made sense, for after all, Yip Man was a small man - how could he beat bigger, huskier people like Leing Sheung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lok Yiu and Wong Shun Leung, unless he had a mastery over body structure? Some have speculated special or secret techniques, or another secret system, but this is not so. The truth is one either develops body structure or not.

I've tried this method on advanced practitioners of Wing Chun - it didn't matter the lineage. What I noticed was a small handful of people had body structure. Some "experts" came to visit me, and I used test one on them - test one is simple pressure on their chest while they stand in a basic stance. Most topple over - even people with over 10 years experience! It's a shame. People with so many years experience, and they can't even stand in their most basic stance. One person I trained privately was toppled over constantly, because he did not know how to adjust his steps and body structure. He was thrown into the bed of his hotel room more than 40 times.

I also went to HK and Taiwan visited the elders of the system, including Wong Shun Leung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lo Man Kam, Koo Sang and others. I also studied with William Cheung for a while. So my grounding is based mostly on the Yip Man system. I've also had the opportunity to study the Yuen Kay Shan system thoroughly, under my Sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, and through my co-author, Rene Ritchie. I think the Yuen Kay Shan system is very rich in teachings and tradition. I was also fortunate Kwan Sifu also passed on the Gu Lao Wing Chun to me, a system that was brought to Gu Lao village by Leung Jan, Wing Chun's most famous fighter. The Gu Lao system, as you might expect, lays emphasis on combat application.

Through the years I met people open and willing to share their systems. For example, the outstanding exponent of Chi Sim Wing Chun, Andreas Hoffman, taught and showed me his version of Weng Chun, which is a completely different system than Wing Chun. His stances are wider and deeper, and their body and pole work are excellent. I was fortunate to learn his applications of throws and joint locks first hand.

Through a sworn brother of mine, Hendrik Santo, I have been fortunate to study completely the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system, which in my opinion, is probably the forerunner to today's version of Wing Chun. This system is unique because it emphasizes the body structure, much as I do in my Wing Chun, and that it is composed of one set that embodies the three forms in Yip Man Wing Chun. The Siu Lien Tao system is comprised of movements from Fujian White Crane boxing as well as Emei 12 Zhuang - an esoteric Buddhism health/combat/meditation system. Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao emphasizes the 36 Tian Gang hands which can be used to cure or injure. The system also has a short dummy set, pole and knives sets and features sticking hands, although from a different platform than what is seen in the Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan systems.
Q: Do you think different 'schools' (styles of the same method) are important?

Not really, as I think it is the practitioner that cultivates his martial arts is most important. In the end, everyone develops their own personal style and if they have followers, a "school" ensues.

For example, one of my early Wing Chun teachers was a very mediocre teacher, but I persevered and studied real hard and was not afraid to experiment with what suited me. Of course, I also consulted with other practitioners, seniors, and elders. Hawkins taught me something great, he said, "Yip Man would tell us not to believe him regarding application of Wing Chun, but to test out our Wing Chun for ourselves." I think this statement had a profound effect on me. Prior to studying with Hawkins, I was always concerned if I learned something correctly, but Hawkins said, it's the application that counts the most. In other schools people always care if they were passed down the art correctly, but I find even if it is transmitted "correctly", but if one cannot make it work, it's worthless. This is why I laugh at all the claims of "original" Wing Chun - if you can make it work, then it is "original". If you can't make it work, then it is BS.

Even Wing Chun has a saying passed down from our ancestors, "Sao Gerk Seung Shiu, Mo Jit Jiu" - Hand and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret unstoppable techniques. When people come out with secret lineages of Wing Chun, I question their intentions.

Q: What is your opinion of other sport competitions like Kickboxing and of other fighting events such as the UFC? Do they represent the real martial arts?

I think these events are still basically sports, because the level of contact is agreed upon and there are rules. I would call these events "martial sports", just like boxing, but they do not reflect martial arts. I think these sports produce superb athletes with excellent condition and good all round skills, but the intent to kill someone is not there. True martial arts deal with a life or death situation and it also looks to heal the body, mind and spirit. Too many are practicing to be brawlers or fighters, but a true martial artist develops the soul of a Jun Zi - Confucious' idea of a nobleman - not necessarily in prestige or rank, but rather in character.

Q: Do you think that kung fu in the West has 'caught up' with the East as far as skill level? (If not, please elaborate on what is necessary to reach that level)

Yes. We've probably even surpassed them. The best people always come over here as this is the land of opportunity. I also think that people in Asia struggle to make a living and have less freetime to cultivate and develop themselves. I used to think the skill in HK or China must be superior to here, but after I visited in 1987 and later saw people who trained on the mainland, I was not impressed with the level of skill. Basically, if you're good here, you're also good there.

Q: Martial art are nowadays often referred to as a sport. would you agree with this definition?

The way most people practice is a sport, a recreation. I think martial arts is not a sport, but rather an art form. It is in a unique category. Martial arts is still the best name, rather than being classified as a sport.

Q: Do you feel that you still have further to go in your studies?

I think one can always improve. The most important thing is to maintain my level and improve daily. One can get better in timing and positioning and with regards to experience, and in this way, intuition can take over. But it must be grounded in logic, and mastery of your arts.

Q: Do you think it helps kung fu physically to train with weapons?

Definitely. The weapons skills are a complement to the empty hand skills. They teach you how to move with weight and how to dynamically apply your power and momentum through an apparatus. Few people train today with the intent to fight wityh a weapon. Most Wing Chun people use the pole as a form of weight training, and the knives as an exercise with weights; I think this is wrong in a way, as it does not develop the thought of application with the weapon - how to really cut, or disarm an opponent, and how to finish him with your weapon. In essence, the martial intent behind the weapons is lost. Weapons skills here in the USA have degraded into a show; basically everyone wants to dazzle people - but it's empty. In Southern China, one had to be proficient with a pole - to really protect oneself.

Q: Do you think the practitioner's personal training should be different to his 'teaching' schedule as instructor?

Yes. But I do think teaching is also a form of training. When you have learned your art inside out and spent enough time, you begin to move within the context of the art - there fore, everything you do is training. You stop just using arm power when you use a wrench or hammer - your body, your intent - everything is behind your movement. I change my son's diaper, I have to use a Wu Sao (Wing Chun guard hand) to protect myself from his squirting me. I use my steps to walk through crowds, I time my entry into a revolving door. All of these are daily activities that train us.

Q: do you have any general advice you would care to pass on the martial artist?

Yes, don't fall for Chinese marketing BS of "original" this or that! But seriously, everyday is training and find ways to train in everything you do. Try to study with as many people in your field as possible and concentrate on that. Then, get perspectives from outside your area of expertise. I would also say the core of real skill, the DNA of Wing Chun, is body structure. A person wanting to really master the art ought to get some real instruction in that.

Q: What do you consider to be the major changes in the arts since you began your training?

More information is available today, and slowly, all the secrecy is going away. Andreas Hoffman said something good to me, "In the future, there will be no secrets, all that people have to do is train hard and they will have it all". I think that is very true. More and more, teachers today are willing to share their fine points with you through books and videos. Of course, the majority of the stuff out there is mediocre.

Q: Who would you like to have trained with that you have not (dead or alive)?

Yip Man, because he was such a character. I could also ask him whether or not he really taught some of today's people, especially the knives forms I have seen from some individuals. I'd also like to have studied with Yuen Kay Shan because he had a great mind and he was always trying to improve. I've often thought of Leung Jan, because he was an expert in Chinese medicine, as well as a fighter and teacher. I regret not having enough time to visit with Si Bak, Wong Shun Leung, who's recent passing has left a hole in the Wing Chun family. I would also like to travel back in time and meet with the founders of Wing Chun, so I could really discern who was the real founder of Wing Chun.

Q: What would you say to someone who is interested in starting to learn martial arts?

Find something that you like and stick with it. Also, don't be afraid to try something else new if you don't like it. Try to get as much advice from elders and seniors. Always think of how to improve and you eventually will attain a high level of skill. You have to leave techniques and theory behind and really dig deep to reveal the principles and concepts behind your systems. That is real training.

Q: What is it that keeps you motivated after all these years?

I believe that the Wing Chun I practice is a very complete system. It has stimulated my mind to working out the variations, changes and combinations for many, many years. It stimulated my sensitivity to touch and pressure, with timing and directions so that I can develop my tactile sense. The guiding principles always kept me motivated, as this was advice from our ancestors. The spiritual, moral aspects of the art made me want to study Chan (Zen) deeper. The health aspects led me to study Chinese medicine and acupuncture and the body better. Johnny Wong, a fellow Yip Man Wing Chun practitioner once said to me that Yip Man told him, "The great secret in Wing Chun is that it develops your mind and makes you smarter." I think that comment is very telling. If you can apply that mind set to anything else you study, you can be very successful.

Q: Do you think it is necessary to engage in free-fighting to achieve well

Fighting skills in the street? (Please elaborate on what you think are the most important attributes of a fighter)

I used to teach my students that it was speed, strength, accuracy, timing and cruelty to get the job done, and learn how to apply things under stress. I think free fighting is just a means to develop proficiency under stress, but it is not everything. Today, I think that students need to master timing positioning, concepts and principles. That they need the method, as well as the training behind it. Teachers shouldn't teach you theory, but rather they should teach you principles that work. Instructors shouldn't just teach techniques, but the concepts needed to create techniques.

Q: What is your personal training schedule nowadays?

I do a little something everyday. I generally practice the Wing Chun basics - stance work, form, stepping, and basic combinations. For me, Wing Chun is very natural. All movement I do embodies Wing Chun. For example, if I have to change a flat tire, I use body structure, not my shoulders. This is the way it ought to be. I also train a lot with the long pole, as I feel it is the best way to train for power in Wing Chun.

Q: What is your opinion about mixing styles (karate with kung fu, kick boxing with jiu jitsu) Does the practice of one nullify the effectiveness of the other or on the contrary, it can be beneficial for the student?

I am a big advocate of cross training, but I believe you have to have a strong root and basis in one system you identify with. I firmly believe that you win with your basics and what you trained in the most. Not try to be a jack-of-all-trades, simply because you've studied a bit in all of them. For example, in Wing Chun, we finish a guy with our intercepting strikes. They try to strike us, and we intercept their attack with our own attack. Once we land, the opponent's reaction time is off, and we can further strike him to further slow his reaction time. This allows us time to win with multiple blows. If we can't win with that basic requirement, then our training in basics is crap.

Q: What is-was your philosophical basis for your martial arts training?

I believe very much in Taoism and the harmony of Yin and Yang. The philosophy of Yin and Yang extend into the Si Xiang, and later the Ba Gua (8 trigrams), within this, all of the balance of body, mind and spirit are embodied. The core of this philosophy is balance. This is what Wing Chun stresses - neutralizing and balancing, and adjusting to fit in with your opponent. That is the highest skill.

I also think very highly of Chan/Zen. I find myself reading the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (Hui Neng) quite a bit, as I find that the essence of Zen is there, as well as the martial arts. One of the passages in the Sutra that struck me was when Hui Neng was confronted by Hui Ming, he taught Hui Ming the essence of the Dharma in one sentence, "Not thinking of good or evil, where is your original face?" Hui Ming became enlightened at these words, and asked, "What other secrets did our master give to you?" Hui Neng said, "If you look into your heart, you know there are no secrets." I think these words can alleviate the frustration one encounters when trying to master a martial art. I also think that Chan is the heart of martial arts - as this is the root of the Wing Chun mind.

Q: Do you have a particularly memorable martial art experience which has remained with you as an inspiration for your training?

I have been so fortunate to see many unique things and study with some real masters.

When Yee Sifu practiced the Hung Ga system, you could really see the expression of the five animals come out. When he did the Tiger form, he looked like a tiger. When he did the crane form, it really looked a crane. Yee was fast and explosive and extremely talented. In my opinion, he was the best Hung Ga man I have ever seen.

Lui Yon Sang at 83 asked me to attack him with a pole, but no sooner than I attacked him with a Biu Gwun (Darting staff), he disarmed me and struck me five times before the 8 foot staff hit the ground. He was amazing!

Kwan Jong Yuen always encouraged me to learn medicine, as he felt that martial arts knowledge was never complete unless you knew Chinese medicine. He felt you had to learn the body, the weak and strong points, the range of motion, and how to cure. Kwan Sifu taught me Dim Mak, and how to really injure a person striking their vital points, but he was also balanced, as he taught me how to treat someone if you injure them. This influenced me to study acupuncture and herbology, and I am a Licensed Acupuncturist with my own clinic today. In fact, most of my teachers were expert at acupuncture or herbs, including Yee Chi Wai, Chan Tai Shan, Lui Yon Sang, and Kenny Gong.

One time, Hawkins Cheung and I were discussing fighting techniques and I threw a punch at him. With one crashing slap, he used Pak Da on me and left an incredible expanding welt on my forearm. I was literally stunned at the power of this small man!

Wang Shin Liu was very accomplished in internal cultivation and stressed the internal feeling and movement of Qi in the practice of martial arts. But he was more than a warrior, he was always soft spoken and a kind gentleman. I was always impressed by his humbleness.

All in all, I have been fortunate to meet so many talented individuals.

Q: After all these years of training and experience, could you explain the meaning of the practice of kung fu?

Kung fu means to cultivate. Every day cultivate a little and improve a little. Soon all will be clear.

Q: How do you think a practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts?

I think a person has to get away from all the violence and worry about kicking butt and really have to find the inner wisdom. Avoid three things - greed, anger and stupidity. Don't ever think you're a master or a Buddha. You have to always be a student of life. One thing I don't get is why people want to be teachers - lawyers and doctors have to be practitioners, so should martial artists. What's so great about being a teacher? It's hard work!

Q: Could I ask you what you consider to be the most important qualities of a successful martial artist?

Perseverance and an open mind. A martial artist can't be too smart, or else he won't persevere. If a martial artist is close-minded, he will never have greatness in his expression of the art.

Q: What advice would you give to students on the question of supplementary training?

I think all training is good, but you have to have a goal in mind. For example, if you train with weights, it may enhance your strength, but it doesn't really enhance your knowledge of body mechanics and application of strength in martial arts. I also think supplementary training is to overcome boredom in martial arts training, so I think if a student can cultivate something, then it's good.

One of my students in Long Island, Michael Manganiello, owner of the Ling Nam Siu Lam Academy in Long Island once asked me of the peripheral equipment in Wing Chun like the sand bag, wall bag, iron palm, bag, and spring arm. I told him, basically, this is for dumb students - when a Sifu doesn't like someone or really doesn't want to teach him one on one, he directs a student to a piece of equipment to get him out of his hair! Of course, I'm joking, but there is a truth to what I am saying.

Q: Why is it, in your opinion, that a lot of students start falling away after two-three years of training?

I think because students are of a fickle nature. In this country, things come easy. We all study broadly and not deeply. So it is with studying martial arts. But I also think it is the fault if the instructor for not being a partner with the student and helping a student achieve his goals.

I think the secrecy of the Chinese martial arts is also a detriment and causes much student drop off. When sifu's have a scheme of withholding secrets or levels of training until a certain ceremony is held or a certain sum of money is ascertained, I think this is also a big turn off. Most Chinese know that Chinese hold secrets, and would prefer to study foreign martial arts like Karate, Judo and Tae Kwon Do in Asia. I think this is a laugh for people who hold too many secrets.

I think also, it is a fault of commercial schools offering belts, certificates, testing, phony titles - they're all geared to make a teacher money and inflate the ego. I think tasteless commercialism ruins the martial arts. People look at that and can see right through it. Of course, some people love that external accomplishment, but real martial arts training is better than that commercialism and money making scheming. Wouldn't something that preserves your health and offers you peace of mind be better than all of that commercialism? Of course, a student can always choose whom they want to study with.

Q: Have been times when you felt fear in your training?

I don't think fear is something you have while training - most training never escalates to a point where one is in danger. As long as an instructor teaches a student confidence, I think it will permeate in their demeanor. Fear is something good when you are in a dangerous situation - it heightens the senses and makes the body ready for fight or flight, so I think it is a good thing to be introduced to during training.

Q: What are your thoughts on the future of the martial arts?

I hope martial artists can study the martial arts to avoid delusion, stupidity, greed, envy, anger and hatred. It's a good medium to develop friendship and understand more about life. I'd like to see secrecy abolished and the ego and puffery of stylistic superiority be rid of. I think martial artists need to see others and try to understand people from their context, and avoid the negative politics, which breeds negative thoughts, which lead to destructive actions.

I also believe martial Arts instructors should turn to developing people's minds and body more. There is a great healing system to be tapped within the martial arts. Too often, instructors are concerned with the mundane technical aspects or arguing politics or making bogus claims. We are a great vehicle to helping people fulfill their destiny by nourishing spirit, mind and body.

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By Jose Fraguas Q: How long have you been practicing the martial arts? I started martial arts during my youth, about 7 years old. My grandfather was a practitioner of Shaolin martial arts and Tai Ji Quan and several times when I acted up, I was punished by having to stand in a corner in a horse stance. Little did I know that was basic training in the martial arts. Q: How many styles have you train in? I trained primarily in Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun Kuen in my youth. As I matured, I became interested in Xing Yi, Tai Ji and Ba Gua, and Mi Zong Lama Quan. I was also one of the last disciples of the late master, Lui Yon Sang, the grandmaster of the Fei Lung Fu Mun (Flying Dragon/Tiger System). I was fortunate to have received the complete transmission from him personally. Despite all my crosstraining, I view my personal style as Wing Chun. I practice and teach Tai Ji Quan also, but I feel Wing Chun is closest to suit my personality. Q: who were your primary instructors? I studied with many teachers in New York Chinatown, and wanted to explore the Chinese martial arts as extensively as I could. I thought all systems had their good and bad points, and I thought to cross train and improve myself with the various systems. Also, as young man, I was also seeking for a system that suited me best personally, and I wanted to sample what I could. NY Chinatown had all systems - 7 star praying mantis, white crane, Lion Fist, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, Lung Ying Mor Kiu, Hung Fut, Northern Shaolin and many other systems. Some masters in Chinatown were masters of legitimate systems, some masters just made things up. At age 14, I studied some Wing Chun basics with a friend of mine, Jeung Ma Chut, who studied the Jiu Wan system. Later another friend, Eric Kwai, who was a student of Moy Yat, and I had a Gong Sao match, and although I beat him, his close quarters fighting skill was apparent, so I wanted to learn some of his basics in exchange for some fighting techniques. Eric suggested I continue my studies with one of Moy Yat's top students, so I learned from Lee Moy Shan. Because of a falling out with Lee Moy Shan, I left to study the Gu Lao and Yuen Kay Shan systems of Wing Chun under Kwan Jong Yuen, a good friend and generous teacher. I later went to seek out Master Hawkins Cheung in Wing Chun and have been with him since 1988. He is truly a master and an honorable man and it is his methods that I primarily use. I trained in Hung Ga under Yee Chi Wai (Frank Yee). Yee is the successor to the Tang Fong system of Hung Ga, and I studied the major forms and weaponry of Hung Ga with him. He also introduced me to Mi Zong Lama Pai master, Chan Tai Shan, whom I studied with. I studied Yang style Tai Ji Quan and Hebei Xing Yi under KMT General and Chiang Kai Shek's personal bodyguard, Wang Shin Liu. Wang Lao Shi was a General in the Kou Min Tang army and studied military science in Japan. He was a student of Yang Cheng Fu's disciple, Zhu Gui Ting. When the Japanese invaded China, Wang led many troops to do battle with the Japanese. Wang was also a master of Xing Yi which he learned from Zhu Gui Ting, who studied with Li Cun Yi, so I am proud to learn these martial arts from a man who used the arts in the battlefield. Wang went to Taiwan when the Communists took over China, then later retired in NYC. I also studied briefly under the late Kenny Gong, exploring his Xing Yi. Master Gong taught me the Five Elements, Za Shi Chui and 12 animal forms, and I was very interested in the internal power that was cultivated in Xing Yi. I was one of the last disciples of Fei Long Fu Mun under the late Lui Yon Sang. Master Lui was 83 years old at that time and many of the top young masters in NY Chinatown studied with him. He was interesting because his art primarily consisted of weaponry, most notably the pole and the spear. His fist art came from one of the greatest Southern fist masters of all time - Leung Tien Chiu. Lui taught primarily San Sao and two man work when it came to empty hands. His art was simple, yet very devastatingly effective. Since most of Lui's students were experts in other systems of martial arts, I was introduced to Yin Fu Ba Gua under my fellow training brothers, Chan Bong and Thomas Lee, who studied under Wang Han Zi. I later continued more studies of Yin Fu Ba Gua Quan under He Jing Han of Taiwan. Q: Would you tell us some interesting stories of your early days in kung fu training? New York Chinatown was a mecca of Chinese martial arts and always exciting to meet other practitioners. I would often go and visit my friends from other schools and we would engage in "Gong Sao" (Fighting matches) and exchange with others. Most of the time, we would want to see the forms of who we fought against - this led to comparison and trading arts. For example, I would fight a guy and if I didn't do so good, then I would study fighting methods and a set with him so I could improve my weakness. In this way, I became familiar with the strong points of many styles, and saw how each approached their training from. It was real exciting and fun. Also, there are a lot of family associations in Chinatown - Oak Tin, Jung Shan, Chinese Restaurant Worker's Association which sponsored spaces for visiting or local masters and I might have some friends who were studying or practicing there. I would often go and visit other martial artists and try to pick their brains on how to improve, or just to compare how their martial arts were practiced. Q: Were you a 'natural' at martial arts - did the movements come easily to you? I was no natural - in fact, I was rather skinny and uncoordinated when young. I was tall and lanky compared to the average Cantonese. I did have one advantage - I had great flexibility with my legs, and usually beat most southern fist practitioners with my legs. In martial arts, natural athletes rarely last. The martial arts are an acquired skill; they have to be learned. Some people learn things quickly and just burn out quickly. I also think if you have a burning desire to learn, then you will excel and continue practicing. There's a saying in Chan (Zen) - "No doubt, no attainment; little doubt little attainment; Big doubt, big attainment." I'm a firm believer in that. Today's experts and masters all had to study real hard to get where they are today. No one just gets it handed to them. Some think they can buy martial arts knowledge. I think money may open up the doors, but when it comes to using it, you have to have it in your body, so hard work is essential. Q: How has your personal martial art (kung fu) has changed/developed over the years? I think it develops as you mature. For example, in my youth, fighting was something that was natural - you did it for survival or for the sake of ego. Martial arts were something that led to big delusions - jealousy, hatred, ignorance. I see most practitioners still stuck there today. I saw a lot of guys get involved with the secret societies and with underground activities, and saw many lives ruined. I think that ultimately in martial arts, a small Dao (Way) should lead into a big Dao (way) - you use the arts to temper yourself and as a method to cross over from greed, anger, stupidity. This way you can be more in harmony with yourself and your world. Physically, one has less time to train when they get older, so one has to continue to practice basic "gung" (work) - that is, basic exercises to maintain strength, flexibility, and timing. Nothing leaves the basics. Advanced work is just the basics applied. Q: With all the technical changes during the last 30 years, do you think there is still 'pure' systems such as tai chi chuan, choy lee fut, wing chun kung fu, et cetera? Pure? I think there is no such thing as "pure" - it's an illusion. For example, everyone has their own personal style - you eventually express it when you reach the highest level where art and personality match. Martial arts are both an art and a science. In Wing Chun, the art is scientific because it gives you tools and you properly replicate them, you can have the same results. The art is flexible in that it allows for personal expression. Personal expression is the art part. You learn the tools, then apply them; you don't learn the fighting forms of your master to copy their style. For example, no one in Yip Man Wing Chun fights exactly the same as Yip Man did - it is not a style that you learn to fight with and duplicate your master. The system is based on the most effective use of human body and proper timing and positioning. Everything is dependent upon the moment and the energy that the opponent gives us. People are not entirely correct when they think that Wing Chun is only scientific and based on physics - the basics are the science, but the expression in application is the art. In Wing Chun, nobody teaches you step by step what to do in Chi Sao (Sticking Hands) or what to do when attacked spontaneously - you have to develop yourself to utilize it. We're not a paint by numbers system. All of the founders of the above martial arts must have had some training elsewhere in order to create their system, so only people under that rigid thought of "lineage" try to be pure. Ed Parker said it best - "When pure fist meets pure flesh - that's pure." Too many Chinese people are hung up with pure lineage, authentic transmission, from the grandmaster. I see Americans buying into that also, because they were trained in that way. I think it's rigid. You study martial arts for you - not for what names you can drop. All those names and credentials don't help when you're being attacked. This is why I have a motto, "Let application be your sifu; let function rule over form." In that way, you really weed out the non functional and learn to use your core system. Q: May we talk about different wing chun styles or methods? And if yes, would you elaborate on that? Sure. There are many schools of Wing Chun. There's Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Gu Lao, Pao Fa Lien, Chi Sim Weng Chun, Pan Nam and others. One thing I must say is that in the USA, many come out of the woodwork with secret family systems which claim to be "original" or the most "traditional". Often these claims are just a form of puffery, based on greed or ignorance. In China, we used the marketing claim, "Old, original, or traditional", whereas here in the USA, we say "new and improved". Often these individuals claiming their Wing Chun is the first or oldest is a load of crap - people just want to gain money or fame through the "secret lineage". There are a lot of giveaways and contradictory statements when people come up with this stuff, but often, people are gullible and want to really believe in this fake stuff. I guess some people can't tell the difference between "Chop suey" and Peking duck.. I guess unless one is scholarly and actually spends time to look things up, one can fall for the tricks and advertising. Wing Chun is probably developed most in the 1850's, although some say that it has it's roots are connected to events in Southern China to overthrow the Qing Dynasty that began 150 years earlier. In my opinion, all historians are speculators, since they weren't there. The late Dharma Master Hsuan Hua, the 45 th Dharma successor to Chan (Zen) Buddhism said, "Historians are just people having nothing to do and looking for something to do. They want to investigate history, in other words, to discover what era this person lived in and what period that person lived in. It is like having eaten one's fill, one has nothing to do, so one putters around with meaningless things.In my opinion, these kinds of people are undesirable. The more they research, the more trouble they create, saying, "This is counterfeit, that is real." What is real in the world? What is counterfeit? Nothing! If you think it is counterfeit then it is counterfeit. If you think it is real, then it is real." I think his scolding is full of Chan flavor. If you want to believe your lineage is real and you cultivate it and develop it to a high level, then it is. Who is to say something is legitimate or not? What historians try to do is to prove their hypothesis based on facts they gather and create a paradigm for you to believe in. Pay your money and take your pick! When I looked into the history of Wing Chun with Rene Ritchie, my co-author of Complete Wing Chun, the first thing I told him was every branch will say they're the first, most original and best. You can't avoid the politics. And practically every branch of Wing Chun has said they are the oldest, most original. This is all human nature. They all say that to bolster their egos or want fame, after all, Chinese think the most original is best. So in a sense, this is just a marketing ploy. Chinese knew and understood the power of myths and legends, knowing that the Chinese mind enjoys a mystery and likes to find things out if they are real or not. In fact, in Chinese culture, it is often a custom to exaggerate a friend's credentials when introducing him to another friend. It's a kind of puffery - the only thing is you have to find out whether it is real or not and in what context. It's the same with Wing Chun or any other martial art. For example, the origins of the Shaolin Temple - Damo (Bodhidharma) went to Shaolin, he didn't found the temple, it was already there. Nor did he create Zen or Chinese martial arts. People (usually retired warriors and generals) brought the arts to the temple. The saying "all martial arts are from Shaolin" is an exaggeration. The secret society origins are also fables, popularized through myths and powerful images of Chinese culture. I think even the average Chinese knows the fables and take them with a grain of salt, but the average American has no idea of the culture and lore of the Chinese, so take things as fact. And you know what? You can tell when these people are trying to say their style is special and most original exclusive of every other related style, after all, they're the ones trying hard to promote that lineage. If a person says that Wing Chun is over 300 years old, then it is true for all the branches as well, not just one branch, after all, they all are linked through one important period of time - the time of the Red Boat Opera people of the King Fa Hui. I realize what I say might be offensive to some, but if we have our differences, then I salute you! I can only say these things after I have looked into so -called secrets revealed and researched the history of China from the Ming to the Qing Dynasty period. Personally, I think it is despicable when people lie and talk about their made up origins as real, but if a style has merits, then I try to focus on that. I think some people just want to fill their rice bowl with food and make a living, keep their business open, attract more students, keep their wives happy and put their kids through school. Of course, the best known is the school of Yip Man, and within it, there are many branches based on what the first generation students of Yip Man interpreted. For example, Leung Ting's association is known worldwide and reflects his teachings. William Cheung is also very famous and teaches his interpretation of what Yip Man taught him. I was lucky and was able to study many Wing Chun systems in the Yip Man family, but I concentrated on studying more of what Hawkins Cheung taught me. Hawkins' style I feel is unique, his Wing Chun emphasizes body structure and stresses combat applications. When I went to him, I already knew the entire system and had practiced Wing Chun for over 11 years. Hawkins told me that knowing forms wasn't enough - I had to concentrate on application. I thought, who is this cocky guy? Later I found out that he could back up everything he said. When I studied with Hawkins, I found that the real DNA of Wing Chun is body structure, and this is what permeates in the application of it. What I was lacking in my previous study of Wing Chun was how to use body power. When I learned this, it made sense, for after all, Yip Man was a small man - how could he beat bigger, huskier people like Leing Sheung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lok Yiu and Wong Shun Leung, unless he had a mastery over body structure? Some have speculated special or secret techniques, or another secret system, but this is not so. The truth is one either develops body structure or not. I've tried this method on advanced practitioners of Wing Chun - it didn't matter the lineage. What I noticed was a small handful of people had body structure. Some "experts" came to visit me, and I used test one on them - test one is simple pressure on their chest while they stand in a basic stance. Most topple over - even people with over 10 years experience! It's a shame. People with so many years experience, and they can't even stand in their most basic stance. One person I trained privately was toppled over constantly, because he did not know how to adjust his steps and body structure. He was thrown into the bed of his hotel room more than 40 times. I also went to HK and Taiwan visited the elders of the system, including Wong Shun Leung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lo Man Kam, Koo Sang and others. I also studied with William Cheung for a while. So my grounding is based mostly on the Yip Man system. I've also had the opportunity to study the Yuen Kay Shan system thoroughly, under my Sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, and through my co-author, Rene Ritchie. I think the Yuen Kay Shan system is very rich in teachings and tradition. I was also fortunate Kwan Sifu also passed on the Gu Lao Wing Chun to me, a system that was brought to Gu Lao village by Leung Jan, Wing Chun's most famous fighter. The Gu Lao system, as you might expect, lays emphasis on combat application. Through the years I met people open and willing to share their systems. For example, the outstanding exponent of Chi Sim Wing Chun, Andreas Hoffman, taught and showed me his version of Weng Chun, which is a completely different system than Wing Chun. His stances are wider and deeper, and their body and pole work are excellent. I was fortunate to learn his applications of throws and joint locks first hand. Through a sworn brother of mine, Hendrik Santo, I have been fortunate to study completely the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system, which in my opinion, is probably the forerunner to today's version of Wing Chun. This system is unique because it emphasizes the body structure, much as I do in my Wing Chun, and that it is composed of one set that embodies the three forms in Yip Man Wing Chun. The Siu Lien Tao system is comprised of movements from Fujian White Crane boxing as well as Emei 12 Zhuang - an esoteric Buddhism health/combat/meditation system. Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao emphasizes the 36 Tian Gang hands which can be used to cure or injure. The system also has a short dummy set, pole and knives sets and features sticking hands, although from a different platform than what is seen in the Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan systems. Q: Do you think different 'schools' (styles of the same method) are important? Not really, as I think it is the practitioner that cultivates his martial arts is most important. In the end, everyone develops their own personal style and if they have followers, a "school" ensues. For example, one of my early Wing Chun teachers was a very mediocre teacher, but I persevered and studied real hard and was not afraid to experiment with what suited me. Of course, I also consulted with other practitioners, seniors, and elders. Hawkins taught me something great, he said, "Yip Man would tell us not to believe him regarding application of Wing Chun, but to test out our Wing Chun for ourselves." I think this statement had a profound effect on me. Prior to studying with Hawkins, I was always concerned if I learned something correctly, but Hawkins said, it's the application that counts the most. In other schools people always care if they were passed down the art correctly, but I find even if it is transmitted "correctly", but if one cannot make it work, it's worthless. This is why I laugh at all the claims of "original" Wing Chun - if you can make it work, then it is "original". If you can't make it work, then it is BS. Even Wing Chun has a saying passed down from our ancestors, "Sao Gerk Seung Shiu, Mo Jit Jiu" - Hand and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret unstoppable techniques. When people come out with secret lineages of Wing Chun, I question their intentions. Q: What is your opinion of other sport competitions like Kickboxing and of other fighting events such as the UFC? Do they represent the real martial arts? I think these events are still basically sports, because the level of contact is agreed upon and there are rules. I would call these events "martial sports", just like boxing, but they do not reflect martial arts. I think these sports produce superb athletes with excellent condition and good all round skills, but the intent to kill someone is not there. True martial arts deal with a life or death situation and it also looks to heal the body, mind and spirit. Too many are practicing to be brawlers or fighters, but a true martial artist develops the soul of a Jun Zi - Confucious' idea of a nobleman - not necessarily in prestige or rank, but rather in character. Q: Do you think that kung fu in the West has 'caught up' with the East as far as skill level? (If not, please elaborate on what is necessary to reach that level) Yes. We've probably even surpassed them. The best people always come over here as this is the land of opportunity. I also think that people in Asia struggle to make a living and have less freetime to cultivate and develop themselves. I used to think the skill in HK or China must be superior to here, but after I visited in 1987 and later saw people who trained on the mainland, I was not impressed with the level of skill. Basically, if you're good here, you're also good there. Q: Martial art are nowadays often referred to as a sport. would you agree with this definition? The way most people practice is a sport, a recreation. I think martial arts is not a sport, but rather an art form. It is in a unique category. Martial arts is still the best name, rather than being classified as a sport. Q: Do you feel that you still have further to go in your studies? I think one can always improve. The most important thing is to maintain my level and improve daily. One can get better in timing and positioning and with regards to experience, and in this way, intuition can take over. But it must be grounded in logic, and mastery of your arts. Q: Do you think it helps kung fu physically to train with weapons? Definitely. The weapons skills are a complement to the empty hand skills. They teach you how to move with weight and how to dynamically apply your power and momentum through an apparatus. Few people train today with the intent to fight wityh a weapon. Most Wing Chun people use the pole as a form of weight training, and the knives as an exercise with weights; I think this is wrong in a way, as it does not develop the thought of application with the weapon - how to really cut, or disarm an opponent, and how to finish him with your weapon. In essence, the martial intent behind the weapons is lost. Weapons skills here in the USA have degraded into a show; basically everyone wants to dazzle people - but it's empty. In Southern China, one had to be proficient with a pole - to really protect oneself. Q: Do you think the practitioner's personal training should be different to his 'teaching' schedule as instructor? Yes. But I do think teaching is also a form of training. When you have learned your art inside out and spent enough time, you begin to move within the context of the art - there fore, everything you do is training. You stop just using arm power when you use a wrench or hammer - your body, your intent - everything is behind your movement. I change my son's diaper, I have to use a Wu Sao (Wing Chun guard hand) to protect myself from his squirting me. I use my steps to walk through crowds, I time my entry into a revolving door. All of these are daily activities that train us. Q: do you have any general advice you would care to pass on the martial artist? Yes, don't fall for Chinese marketing BS of "original" this or that! But seriously, everyday is training and find ways to train in everything you do. Try to study with as many people in your field as possible and concentrate on that. Then, get perspectives from outside your area of expertise. I would also say the core of real skill, the DNA of Wing Chun, is body structure. A person wanting to really master the art ought to get some real instruction in that. Q: What do you consider to be the major changes in the arts since you began your training? More information is available today, and slowly, all the secrecy is going away. Andreas Hoffman said something good to me, "In the future, there will be no secrets, all that people have to do is train hard and they will have it all". I think that is very true. More and more, teachers today are willing to share their fine points with you through books and videos. Of course, the majority of the stuff out there is mediocre. Q: Who would you like to have trained with that you have not (dead or alive)? Yip Man, because he was such a character. I could also ask him whether or not he really taught some of today's people, especially the knives forms I have seen from some individuals. I'd also like to have studied with Yuen Kay Shan because he had a great mind and he was always trying to improve. I've often thought of Leung Jan, because he was an expert in Chinese medicine, as well as a fighter and teacher. I regret not having enough time to visit with Si Bak, Wong Shun Leung, who's recent passing has left a hole in the Wing Chun family. I would also like to travel back in time and meet with the founders of Wing Chun, so I could really discern who was the real founder of Wing Chun. Q: What would you say to someone who is interested in starting to learn martial arts? Find something that you like and stick with it. Also, don't be afraid to try something else new if you don't like it. Try to get as much advice from elders and seniors. Always think of how to improve and you eventually will attain a high level of skill. You have to leave techniques and theory behind and really dig deep to reveal the principles and concepts behind your systems. That is real training. Q: What is it that keeps you motivated after all these years? I believe that the Wing Chun I practice is a very complete system. It has stimulated my mind to working out the variations, changes and combinations for many, many years. It stimulated my sensitivity to touch and pressure, with timing and directions so that I can develop my tactile sense. The guiding principles always kept me motivated, as this was advice from our ancestors. The spiritual, moral aspects of the art made me want to study Chan (Zen) deeper. The health aspects led me to study Chinese medicine and acupuncture and the body better. Johnny Wong, a fellow Yip Man Wing Chun practitioner once said to me that Yip Man told him, "The great secret in Wing Chun is that it develops your mind and makes you smarter." I think that comment is very telling. If you can apply that mind set to anything else you study, you can be very successful. Q: Do you think it is necessary to engage in free-fighting to achieve well Fighting skills in the street? (Please elaborate on what you think are the most important attributes of a fighter) I used to teach my students that it was speed, strength, accuracy, timing and cruelty to get the job done, and learn how to apply things under stress. I think free fighting is just a means to develop proficiency under stress, but it is not everything. Today, I think that students need to master timing positioning, concepts and principles. That they need the method, as well as the training behind it. Teachers shouldn't teach you theory, but rather they should teach you principles that work. Instructors shouldn't just teach techniques, but the concepts needed to create techniques. Q: What is your personal training schedule nowadays? I do a little something everyday. I generally practice the Wing Chun basics - stance work, form, stepping, and basic combinations. For me, Wing Chun is very natural. All movement I do embodies Wing Chun. For example, if I have to change a flat tire, I use body structure, not my shoulders. This is the way it ought to be. I also train a lot with the long pole, as I feel it is the best way to train for power in Wing Chun. Q: What is your opinion about mixing styles (karate with kung fu, kick boxing with jiu jitsu) Does the practice of one nullify the effectiveness of the other or on the contrary, it can be beneficial for the student? I am a big advocate of cross training, but I believe you have to have a strong root and basis in one system you identify with. I firmly believe that you win with your basics and what you trained in the most. Not try to be a jack-of-all-trades, simply because you've studied a bit in all of them. For example, in Wing Chun, we finish a guy with our intercepting strikes. They try to strike us, and we intercept their attack with our own attack. Once we land, the opponent's reaction time is off, and we can further strike him to further slow his reaction time. This allows us time to win with multiple blows. If we can't win with that basic requirement, then our training in basics is crap. Q: What is-was your philosophical basis for your martial arts training? I believe very much in Taoism and the harmony of Yin and Yang. The philosophy of Yin and Yang extend into the Si Xiang, and later the Ba Gua (8 trigrams), within this, all of the balance of body, mind and spirit are embodied. The core of this philosophy is balance. This is what Wing Chun stresses - neutralizing and balancing, and adjusting to fit in with your opponent. That is the highest skill. I also think very highly of Chan/Zen. I find myself reading the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (Hui Neng) quite a bit, as I find that the essence of Zen is there, as well as the martial arts. One of the passages in the Sutra that struck me was when Hui Neng was confronted by Hui Ming, he taught Hui Ming the essence of the Dharma in one sentence, "Not thinking of good or evil, where is your original face?" Hui Ming became enlightened at these words, and asked, "What other secrets did our master give to you?" Hui Neng said, "If you look into your heart, you know there are no secrets." I think these words can alleviate the frustration one encounters when trying to master a martial art. I also think that Chan is the heart of martial arts - as this is the root of the Wing Chun mind. Q: Do you have a particularly memorable martial art experience which has remained with you as an inspiration for your training? I have been so fortunate to see many unique things and study with some real masters. When Yee Sifu practiced the Hung Ga system, you could really see the expression of the five animals come out. When he did the Tiger form, he looked like a tiger. When he did the crane form, it really looked a crane. Yee was fast and explosive and extremely talented. In my opinion, he was the best Hung Ga man I have ever seen. Lui Yon Sang at 83 asked me to attack him with a pole, but no sooner than I attacked him with a Biu Gwun (Darting staff), he disarmed me and struck me five times before the 8 foot staff hit the ground. He was amazing! Kwan Jong Yuen always encouraged me to learn medicine, as he felt that martial arts knowledge was never complete unless you knew Chinese medicine. He felt you had to learn the body, the weak and strong points, the range of motion, and how to cure. Kwan Sifu taught me Dim Mak, and how to really injure a person striking their vital points, but he was also balanced, as he taught me how to treat someone if you injure them. This influenced me to study acupuncture and herbology, and I am a Licensed Acupuncturist with my own clinic today. In fact, most of my teachers were expert at acupuncture or herbs, including Yee Chi Wai, Chan Tai Shan, Lui Yon Sang, and Kenny Gong. One time, Hawkins Cheung and I were discussing fighting techniques and I threw a punch at him. With one crashing slap, he used Pak Da on me and left an incredible expanding welt on my forearm. I was literally stunned at the power of this small man! Wang Shin Liu was very accomplished in internal cultivation and stressed the internal feeling and movement of Qi in the practice of martial arts. But he was more than a warrior, he was always soft spoken and a kind gentleman. I was always impressed by his humbleness. All in all, I have been fortunate to meet so many talented individuals. Q: After all these years of training and experience, could you explain the meaning of the practice of kung fu? Kung fu means to cultivate. Every day cultivate a little and improve a little. Soon all will be clear. Q: How do you think a practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts? I think a person has to get away from all the violence and worry about kicking butt and really have to find the inner wisdom. Avoid three things - greed, anger and stupidity. Don't ever think you're a master or a Buddha. You have to always be a student of life. One thing I don't get is why people want to be teachers - lawyers and doctors have to be practitioners, so should martial artists. What's so great about being a teacher? It's hard work! Q: Could I ask you what you consider to be the most important qualities of a successful martial artist? Perseverance and an open mind. A martial artist can't be too smart, or else he won't persevere. If a martial artist is close-minded, he will never have greatness in his expression of the art. Q: What advice would you give to students on the question of supplementary training? I think all training is good, but you have to have a goal in mind. For example, if you train with weights, it may enhance your strength, but it doesn't really enhance your knowledge of body mechanics and application of strength in martial arts. I also think supplementary training is to overcome boredom in martial arts training, so I think if a student can cultivate something, then it's good. One of my students in Long Island, Michael Manganiello, owner of the Ling Nam Siu Lam Academy in Long Island once asked me of the peripheral equipment in Wing Chun like the sand bag, wall bag, iron palm, bag, and spring arm. I told him, basically, this is for dumb students - when a Sifu doesn't like someone or really doesn't want to teach him one on one, he directs a student to a piece of equipment to get him out of his hair! Of course, I'm joking, but there is a truth to what I am saying. Q: Why is it, in your opinion, that a lot of students start falling away after two-three years of training? I think because students are of a fickle nature. In this country, things come easy. We all study broadly and not deeply. So it is with studying martial arts. But I also think it is the fault if the instructor for not being a partner with the student and helping a student achieve his goals. I think the secrecy of the Chinese martial arts is also a detriment and causes much student drop off. When sifu's have a scheme of withholding secrets or levels of training until a certain ceremony is held or a certain sum of money is ascertained, I think this is also a big turn off. Most Chinese know that Chinese hold secrets, and would prefer to study foreign martial arts like Karate, Judo and Tae Kwon Do in Asia. I think this is a laugh for people who hold too many secrets. I think also, it is a fault of commercial schools offering belts, certificates, testing, phony titles - they're all geared to make a teacher money and inflate the ego. I think tasteless commercialism ruins the martial arts. People look at that and can see right through it. Of course, some people love that external accomplishment, but real martial arts training is better than that commercialism and money making scheming. Wouldn't something that preserves your health and offers you peace of mind be better than all of that commercialism? Of course, a student can always choose whom they want to study with. Q: Have been times when you felt fear in your training? I don't think fear is something you have while training - most training never escalates to a point where one is in danger. As long as an instructor teaches a student confidence, I think it will permeate in their demeanor. Fear is something good when you are in a dangerous situation - it heightens the senses and makes the body ready for fight or flight, so I think it is a good thing to be introduced to during training. Q: What are your thoughts on the future of the martial arts? I hope martial artists can study the martial arts to avoid delusion, stupidity, greed, envy, anger and hatred. It's a good medium to develop friendship and understand more about life. I'd like to see secrecy abolished and the ego and puffery of stylistic superiority be rid of. I think martial artists need to see others and try to understand people from their context, and avoid the negative politics, which breeds negative thoughts, which lead to destructive actions. I also believe martial Arts instructors should turn to developing people's minds and body more. There is a great healing system to be tapped within the martial arts. Too often, instructors are concerned with the mundane technical aspects or arguing politics or making bogus claims. We are a great vehicle to helping people fulfill their destiny by nourishing spirit, mind and body.